The Pediatric Breathing Project with Dr. Piya Gandhi, DDS

Everything We Were Taught About Pediatric Airway Was Wrong

• Dr. Piya Gandhi, DDS • Season 1 • Episode 10

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What if everything we were taught about pediatric airway health was wrong?

In Episode 10 of The Pediatric Breathing Project, Dr. Piya Gandhi is joined by fellow pediatric dentist, educator, entrepreneur, and author Dr. Kalli Hale for a thoughtful conversation about how pediatric airway dentistry has evolved, why so many children still go undiagnosed, and how curiosity, collaboration, and continued learning are changing the future of healthcare.

Dr. Kalli shares her journey into airway-focused dentistry, the misconceptions many providers were taught about pediatric snoring and teeth grinding, and why identifying airway issues early can have a lifelong impact on a child's health. The conversation also takes an honest turn into the realities of building an airway-focused practice, navigating burnout, and finding sustainable ways to lead, teach, and care for patients without sacrificing your own well-being.

In this episode:

  • How Dr. Kalli's journey into airway dentistry began
  • The early signs of pediatric sleep-disordered breathing
  • Why mouth breathing should never be ignored
  • The connection between bruxism, enlarged tonsils, tongue ties, and airway health
  • Why collaborative care leads to better patient outcomes
  • Common misconceptions parents and providers still hear today
  • Burnout, boundaries, and leadership as female healthcare professionals
  • Practical advice for parents looking for answers
  • Guidance for providers interested in incorporating airway-focused care into their practices

Resources

Dr. Piya Gandhi

Website:
https://drpiyagandhi.com/

Free Airway Checklist & Resources:
https://drpiyagandhi.com/

Find an Airway Provider Near You:
https://drpiyagandhi.com/website_4530a186/#directory

Dr. Kalli Hale

Website:
https://theairwaydentists.com/our-doctors/kalli-hale/

Instagram:
https://www.instagram.com/theairwaycentereddentist/

Order The Dental Burnout Solution:
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0H38F2CMP


If this conversation helped you think differently about pediatric airway health, we'd love for you to subscribe, leave a review, and share this episode with a fellow parent or healthcare professional. Every conversation helps bring greater awareness to the importance of healthy breathing, healthy sleep, and healthy development.

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The Pediatric Breathing Project with Dr. Piya Gandhi explores how airway health, jaw development, and sleep impact childhood wellness. Parents and practitioners will learn to spot early signs of sleep-disordered breathing and discover practical solutions for healthier futures.

If you’re a parent, dentist, pediatrician, or healthcare professional passionate about giving children the best start in life, this podcast is your guide to better breathing, better sleep, and better development.

Piya Trehan Gandhi, DDS

BOARD CERTIFIED PEDIATRIC DENTIST, AIRWAY AND TONGUE TIE RELEASE SPECIALIST

Instagram | TikTok | LinkedIn | YouTube | Website


Resources from Dr. Piya Gandhi:



Dr. Piya Gandhi:

I'm Dr. Piya Gandhi, and welcome to my podcast. Today, I have a good friend and colleague as my guest. I'm really excited to have Dr. Kalli Hale here. Thank you. We're here today to talk about not only early signs of pediatric airway disorders, but also, uh, how to do all the things as a woman and a mom and a wife and a business owner and a practicing dentist. Um, share some of the journey that we've been on, um, to make our dreams come true, really. Yes. So, welcome.

Dr. Kalli Hale:

Thank you so much for having me.

Dr. Piya Gandhi:

Yeah. We've been talking about this for so long. I know. We're finally getting together. Um, I would love to start by just hearing about, um, your journey into the airway space- Yeah and, um, how it all started for you. Sure. Uh, yeah, would just love to hear more about you. I would love that. So I

Dr. Kalli Hale:

grew up in a family of dentists. So I'm one of five in my immediate family. Wow. My parents met in dental school, and the rest is history, like, as I like to say. My younger sister's a dentist. I'm married to a dentist. And my older sister is the only one in the immediate family that is not a dentist, but she runs the businesses for us. So she- Nice… she is vital part of all of this. Yeah. And, you know, I got out of school as anybody does and as a general dentist, and you're just practicing dentistry and learning and you, you know, just enough to not be a danger, you know? And I had such… It was such a blessing for me to walk into my dad's practice- Mm … to have him behind the wall to save me from anything, anytime I needed, in an established… He'd been there 30-something years by the time- Wow… I joined him. And learned so much. I did a implant residency. I thought, "Man, I'm gonna do surgery" Yeah you know,'cause that's what he did. He had his own course for many years. And life was just happening. Mm-hmm. And I started hearing about sleep apnea, but from an adult perspective. Right. Nothing with pediatrics. I mean, back then, like, it just was very, like, blue ocean, all of this, like, OSA stuff. In dental school, I went to UT grad dental school, but we can talk about this. Yeah. We can talk about sleep apnea. Yeah. And they are aboard now, I hear, 'cause I- I'd been asking, and that's great. But it just was not a thing.

Dr. Piya Gandhi:

Yes.

Dr. Kalli Hale:

And I started screening before I even had any of my own home sleep test machines. I used a company that if the patient was serious enough, they'd get in contact with them and then get a test and bring it back to me. Like, it was like the worst flow you could have- Yeah… for your patient. But I didn't, certainly didn't know what sleep test machine to buy. Sure. I wasn't even invested in it at that time, and I didn't even know what I didn't know. So I start screening 'cause I see, okay, this patient's bruxing, or their implant abutment screw keeps coming loose. Like, why is it happening? And of course, all the things in general dentistry you blame yourself for- Sure … as the clinician. Like, they broke their crown, or they, their crown keeps popping off or whatever, and we're just, like, so focused on, like, the tooth and- Yeah… like, that's it, nothing else, that we're not thinking like,"Well, why is the bruxing happening? You know, what else could be going on?" I knew little of nothing about snoring. Actually, my dad used to offer this appliance to patients for snoring called an NFA. Oh, do you remember this thing? Mm-hmm. You stick your tongue inside of it. Yes. And it just holds your tongue out of your mouth. And I, and, and he just, like, loved it. Patients like it a lot. The patients loved it. And so he was treating snoring problems, like, I mean- Yeah.… he didn't even realize it. I like it. Like, you know, it just, like, was a, a great option for airway management at the time. And so I started telling him,"I wanna start screening patients." And I started catching it like you were. I didn't know what to even do with it. Like, I would get these reports back, and I'm like, "These patients are severe." Yes."That they have severe obstructive sleep apnea." And what do we do? Like, where do we go from here with this? And so I started, like, just hearing about courses and options and, like, for any dentist listening, it was, it is so hard. There are so many.

Dr. Piya Gandhi:

Yes.

Dr. Kalli Hale:

Like, you gotta navigate the field to figure out, like, who do you trust? Where do you wanna get educated? How do you wanna approach this? There's no, like, streamlined path. Exactly, yeah. And I think it's- Yeah … because it's all been so new for the last, like, 10, 15 years. Yes. And now there's a lot of great evidence supporting certain modalities. I think it's great. But back then, I was just swimming in the ocean- Yes… trying to figure out, like, how to help these people. And so I did a lot of various CE and was learning about it. When I had to learn about the pediatric side of this, it blew me- And I really only intended on ever treating adults. Yeah. Like, I was like, I was the general dentist that was like happy to refer to ped for everything. Yeah. Like, I didn't wanna give them a shot, I didn't wanna do any, like, even restorative on the kiddos, and now I just like, I love the kids. Yeah. Like,

Dr. Piya Gandhi:

it was so amazing. So do you currently predominantly treat children or adults? Or is

Dr. Kalli Hale:

it a kind of mix? So we do both in our practice. Okay. Yeah, we do both. But that, that whole journey was just like such a ride of realizing that what we had been taught about pediatric snoring and bruxism in my ped's rotations in dental school was completely wrong.

Dr. Piya Gandhi:

Yes.

Dr. Kalli Hale:

Like, I'm like,"I paid a lot of money to go to school there," and like, we're worried about sealants when we should be screening for sleep-disordered breathing- Yeah in kids, and that should be like the focus of their ped's program. And so yeah, it was just kind of- Yeah… Dr. Piya Gandhi: Well, I went to pediatric residency- Wow … and still didn't learn these things- Yeah, yeah … for like two extra years. Yeah. And still didn't learn about those things, so- Crazy … um, what are some of the early signs that parents should be looking for? And also just our general dentists and our pediatric dentists, what should they be looking for in these kids? Yeah, I mean, I think mouth breathing is one of the worst things that, I mean, that is the number one. Number one. If your child, your patient is mouth breathing, we have to fix that. Like, they need to become a nasal breather by the time they're an adult, period. Or they will be a, an adult with a mouth breathing problem. But in dentistry, I would say from a general dentist perspective, we were seeing bruxism all the time.

Dr. Piya Gandhi:

Mm-hmm.

Dr. Kalli Hale:

And we were taught to tell the parents that the grinding was normal and they'd grow out of it. That's literally what my pediatric professor told me at UT. And, and same with snoring.

Dr. Piya Gandhi:

Mm-hmm." Dr. Kalli Hale: it's fine. They'll grow out of it." Yes.

Dr. Kalli Hale:

Where's the evidence for that?

Dr. Piya Gandhi:

Yes.

Dr. Kalli Hale:

Wh- like, where do they get that? Wh- why was that something that was told? So I think those are the two biggest that dentists will see and relate to, because if you're a family practice and the kids are coming in anyway and the parents are saying that, we need to be referring for an airway evaluation immediately- Yes with that, at the first sign of it.

Dr. Piya Gandhi:

Yes, I agree. Um, there are, you know- I- I tell dentists you don't need to know how to treat the thing

Dr. Kalli Hale:

100%

Dr. Piya Gandhi:

So don't let that be a barrier to, like- Yes … getting into starting the screening.

Dr. Kalli Hale:

Right.

Dr. Piya Gandhi:

Just look for the signs.

Dr. Kalli Hale:

Absolutely.

Dr. Piya Gandhi:

As you said, mouth breathing's a really easy one to pick up on,'cause you can just look at the kid when they're in your chair. Mm-hmm. And, you know, we traditionally think mouth breathing, uh, the- the mouth has to be, like, gaping open. Right. No, it can be just very- Just a little… slightly open. Mm-hmm. And a very common thing that I hear from parents is they have their mouth open, but they're breathing through their nose. That's not a thing. Yeah. So if their mouth is open, it's for a reason.

Dr. Kalli Hale:

Pretty hard to do. Right. Yeah.

Dr. Piya Gandhi:

Um, and but I just think they're- we're not educated on these things- Right … even as professionals. Right. So as a professional, there are actually six things that contribute, the FARIS six. Yeah. So this is research-backed, which I love. Now we have research to show us this. But six things in children that will put them at a higher risk for sleep disordered breathing.

Dr. Kalli Hale:

Mm-hmm.

Dr. Piya Gandhi:

So mouth breathing, a very obvious one to look at. Dental wear. Yeah. So I think looking at the eye teeth or the canine teeth-

Dr. Kalli Hale:

Perfect… Dr. Piya Gandhi: Parents can even spot this- Yeah or hear the grinding. Yes. Yeah. You know? Oh, yeah, they'll say, "I hear it from the

Dr. Piya Gandhi:

other-" Yes… " Dr. Kalli Hale: Exactly.

Dr. Kalli Hale:

Right. Tonsillar

Dr. Piya Gandhi:

enlargement. Yeah. Which if you're a dentist, you're already looking at tonsils on your regular exam, so- 100% … these are things, like, you're already looking at. Yeah. You're just not putting the pieces together.

Dr. Kalli Hale:

Right. Right.

Dr. Piya Gandhi:

Um, and even as a parent, like, if a pediatrician looks at their throat and says, "Oh, their tonsils are big," that should not just be a passing statement.

Dr. Kalli Hale:

Right.

Dr. Piya Gandhi:

That, okay- Oh my gosh … why? Why?

Dr. Kalli Hale:

Right.

Dr. Piya Gandhi:

We have to take the next step to the why.

Dr. Kalli Hale:

Absolutely.

Dr. Piya Gandhi:

Um, and then tongue tie, which is a big part of- Mm-hmm oral function. Yes. Also something that we're not taught about- Right … and it's not really talked about with parents.

Dr. Kalli Hale:

Totally.

Dr. Piya Gandhi:

And then I think the hardest one to explain to parents is what a mentalis strain is. Yeah. Which is- For sure… you know, kind of, I call it, like, the scrunching of the chin. Mm-hmm. But really, it just tells us that our jaw is not in the right s- right in- in the right spot. Mm-hmm. So as a dental professional- That is what I teach other dental professionals just to start with.

Dr. Kalli Hale:

Yep.

Dr. Piya Gandhi:

Have this little cheat sheet- Nice … called The Pharaix Six. It's free. You can print it, and just start looking at these things. Mm-hmm. Absolutely. And then once you see them, you'll start seeing them everywhere. You

Dr. Kalli Hale:

can't, you can't unsee it.

Dr. Piya Gandhi:

Yes,

Dr. Kalli Hale:

yes. Like it- it's gonna plague you, which is- Yes … which just identifies how big of a problem this is-

Dr. Piya Gandhi:

Yes… Dr. Kalli Hale: Yeah… Dr. Kalli Hale: And we're so many generations in at this point, but mo- most of these kids need early treatment. Yes. It is just crazy. Yeah, those are, those are, that's a- Yeah perfect entry-level way for these doctors to start looking at it and identifying it. The tongue tie thing is kinda crazy to me. So I had my frenectomy done when I was 37. Wow. Yeah, 37, 38. I was so bad. Like, it, I joke with people that it's amazing I amounted to anything in this life- … with the kind of tongue tie I had, okay? Wow. Tip 10, grade four, couldn't elevate, none of it. Wow.

Dr. Kalli Hale:

And I remember driving, Dr. Rachel Garrett did mine.

Dr. Piya Gandhi:

Uh-huh. Okay.

Dr. Kalli Hale:

And a good friend of mine. Yeah. And I remember driving to her office the day I was getting it done. I was so excited. I had done all this myo and all this- Yeah… like ortho and all this stuff. Yeah. And I called my parents. I'm like, "Why didn't you fix this for me when I was a baby?" You know, 'cause they're b- I'm just like roasting them a little bit. Yeah. And my dad was like, "Honey, they taught us not to-" Yes … do anything about those- Yes,

Dr. Piya Gandhi:

yes… Dr. Kalli Hale: us they would just grow back. And myofunctional therapy was just not understood. Yes.

Dr. Kalli Hale:

And I mean, it existed, but it wasn't taught. Like, you know, and he had no, they, neither him or my mom had any, um, you know, education on or anything about myo.

Dr. Piya Gandhi:

Yes.

Dr. Kalli Hale:

So I'm k- probably kinda glad they didn't, although it was so bad that like it would've been great to do. But he said, you know, "Your pediatrician said you could talk," which I never had issues talking.

Dr. Piya Gandhi:

Yes.

Dr. Kalli Hale:

I fed fine. My mom nursed me. I'm like, "How?"

Dr. Piya Gandhi:

Yeah,

Dr. Kalli Hale:

yeah. Like, how did you do that? And, and you know, whatever. But it is such great perspective for me now when we're talking to our patients about getting it done, doing the myo, making that investment early- Yes … so they don't have to have all the issues I had- Yes with like growth and

Dr. Piya Gandhi:

development. And you brought s- uh, an important point up about the myo, but also just the importance of collaborative care in this field- Yes… in general.

Dr. Kalli Hale:

Yeah.

Dr. Piya Gandhi:

The airway space.

Dr. Kalli Hale:

Right.

Dr. Piya Gandhi:

You know, tongue ties specifically also, but in your opinion, when we're talking about collaboration-

Dr. Kalli Hale:

Mm-hmm

Dr. Piya Gandhi:

like who- Who's at the table? Like, who are the must-haves- Yeah… in an ideal world, right? Yeah. I don't think we're there yet.

Dr. Kalli Hale:

Yeah.

Dr. Piya Gandhi:

But if you could put together, we're treating a child- Mm-hmm … who are we talking to? It

Dr. Kalli Hale:

was everybody.

Dr. Piya Gandhi:

Yeah.

Dr. Kalli Hale:

We, we spent a lot of time right now on this in the Airway Dentists. We've got a lot of practices kind of booming and opening. Yes. And I'm like, we have to have our people.

Dr. Piya Gandhi:

Congratulations.

Dr. Kalli Hale:

It's… Well, well, thank you. Yeah. It's amazing. Not, not trying to just, like, toot my horn, but it's so important. The collaboration is like, where we go into a new market, I- we need to find our ENT. Mm-hmm. We need to find our chiro. We need to find our craniosacral, our lactation consultant, our myo, our SLP. Yes. Like, for me, it's, it's everybody because it's not the Callie show. I see this every day. The doctors I train, the doctors that work for me, it's not the Amanda show. It's not the Callie show. It is about this child getting individualized treatment- Correct … for their care, and if they need to see ENT… And I'm also always, what are we treating? Any cases I'm reviewing with them, show me where the dysfunction is so that- Mm-hmm … I know that you know what you're treating these patients. Because it's not all the same. It's never- Yes… cookie cutter. And so it's just, it's a really important part of it. So I would say chiro, functional medicine, pediatric dentist, like IBCLCs, SLP, myo, ENT. Yeah.

Dr. Piya Gandhi:

Where do you find- What about you? Simil- same.

Dr. Kalli Hale:

Okay.

Dr. Piya Gandhi:

And what I would love to add to that is more of our medical field. Yes. Sleep medicine.

Dr. Kalli Hale:

For sure.

Dr. Piya Gandhi:

You know, there are ENTs, but-

Dr. Kalli Hale:

Some… Dr. Piya Gandhi: Um, and we live in the fourth-largest city in the world. I know. Or, sorry, in the country. We are very lucky with what we have around us. And,

Dr. Piya Gandhi:

yes, yes.

Dr. Kalli Hale:

Others,

Dr. Piya Gandhi:

not. Others, there's even- It's impossible… it's even more scarce.

Dr. Kalli Hale:

Yes.

Dr. Piya Gandhi:

But- You know, I think this is a, a problem that, um, practitioners face but parents face when they're looking into-

Dr. Kalli Hale:

Absolutely… Dr. Piya Gandhi: listen to? Like, what do I do next? Because we're all not on the same page yet. I would love for our pediatricians to be on board. I would love for all of our pediatric dentists to be on board. I know. It's- You know? Um, recently I… It, it's tricky because not all of my patients that I'm treating for airway are also our dental patients. I know.

Dr. Piya Gandhi:

Same. So they may be seeing another provider for- Right… dentistry, and-

Dr. Kalli Hale:

And they

Dr. Piya Gandhi:

may

Dr. Kalli Hale:

critique what you're doing

Dr. Piya Gandhi:

Or they even, uh, don't understand it. Of course they

Dr. Kalli Hale:

don't.

Dr. Piya Gandhi:

Yeah. You know? And I think that's the, the issue is that- It's hard … when we don't understand something, the default is critiquing it rather than- Oh my gosh. Thank you for saying that… seeking, seeking to understand it.

Dr. Kalli Hale:

Absolutely.

Dr. Piya Gandhi:

And I'm the type of practitioner that I'm like,"I'm happy to hop on a phone call with you and tell you what I'm doing." Yes. You know? Right.

Dr. Kalli Hale:

Yeah.

Dr. Piya Gandhi:

Um, but w- who gets caught in the middle is the patient and the parent.

Dr. Kalli Hale:

Mm-hmm.

Dr. Piya Gandhi:

And then- It's very

Dr. Kalli Hale:

awkward for them… Dr. Piya Gandhi: awkward, and it- Yeah … it makes them doubt their decision. 100%.

Dr. Piya Gandhi:

So, you know, just yesterday I got a call from a parent and, that said, you know, "I've, I went to my dentist for a checkup with my child and, uh, they said he now has enough space and he didn't need the expander to begin with-" Oh my gosh so I just want you to take it out."

Dr. Kalli Hale:

Oh my goodness.

Dr. Piya Gandhi:

And to me, I mean, I understand where this parent is coming from, because I was that parent. You know? And I'm in the dental field, and I was that parent. Right. Because as an infant, my daughter had a tongue tie, and I didn't know about it, and I got different opinions about what was going on. So I get that.

Dr. Kalli Hale:

Yeah.

Dr. Piya Gandhi:

But what I don't love is the one who's gonna suffer is this child. I

Dr. Kalli Hale:

know. I know.

Dr. Piya Gandhi:

And-

Dr. Kalli Hale:

Forever. I mean, it is a-

Dr. Piya Gandhi:

Yeah … lifelong decision. So when we talk about people being at the table, I mean, I think we need to get our own field- Yeah… all- The whole of my goodness … on the table first. Absolutely.

Dr. Kalli Hale:

Yeah.

Dr. Piya Gandhi:

And, um, you know, that brings in the point of- You're an educator. Yeah. I'm an educator. When we speak to other dentists that are interested in this-

Dr. Kalli Hale:

Yeah… Dr. Piya Gandhi: is always, "Well, how do I do all these things?" Yeah.

Dr. Piya Gandhi:

Especially if you're a female- Yeah … and a mom and a- For

Dr. Kalli Hale:

sure… Dr. Piya Gandhi: And you gotta

Dr. Piya Gandhi:

make payroll and you gotta be… Right And you wanna take care of your own health-

Dr. Kalli Hale:

Right… Dr. Piya Gandhi: some balance- Totally… Dr. Piya Gandhi: present for your own children. You know, how, how do you fit all these things in? How have you done it? Yeah, I mean, the burnout, the burnout risk I think especially for female dentists, and at, and when you're a small business owner is huge. And I lived it. I completely lived it. And t- the height of my booming, like airway practice way before the airway dentist even existed, I really couldn't manage it. And you get to the point where the thing that you love to do the most, that you're really freaking good at, becomes the thing that you wanna run away from. Yeah. And then you think that dentistry is the problem, and it's not. It's what you've taken on. It's your mindset around it. Mm. And then your lack of boundaries. I had a serious lack of boundaries. Yep. I mean, patients could get ahold of me anytime they wanted. They'd find me on social media. They're asking me about Zoom

whitening at 9:

00. Like, I write about that in the book. It's just like things where I needed really my own boundaries

Dr. Piya Gandhi:

that I just didn't have when I was practicing. Was there a moment that made you realize I have let my, I've- Yes … you know, kind of let people into my circle.

Dr. Kalli Hale:

Yeah.

Dr. Piya Gandhi:

And I have let go of these boundaries that made you pause and say-

Dr. Kalli Hale:

Yes

Dr. Piya Gandhi:

"Something's gotta change."

Dr. Kalli Hale:

There were two major things that happened. One was an evening that I was on my phone. I get a message from a patient, and it was a big complaint about something. I have five associates. I didn't… And I didn't even wanna open it.

Dr. Piya Gandhi:

Mm.

Dr. Kalli Hale:

But I'm, in that, at that moment, I didn't have the boundaries of not opening it until Monday. And because this patient could message me and knew that they could bypass whatever my management was saying or whatever to get it to me, it was one of those things where I just, I, I looked at my phone and I just, like, my heart rate increased.

Dr. Piya Gandhi:

Mm.

Dr. Kalli Hale:

I write about, like, the physiological symptoms that I was ignoring in my body. I had, like, a crazy high blood pressure moment at work one time, but it wasn't even with a patient. I'm just chilling, hanging out with my associate. We're talking about, like, shopping or something and everything went tunnel for me. And I was… And she was brand new. She had just graduated. Yeah. And I, she's mid-tr- talking about something, and I was like,"Katie, I gotta get blood pressure right now,"'cause I was gonna pass out. My- Mm … and it was. It was, like, 180

Dr. Piya Gandhi:

or whatever. So your body was

Dr. Kalli Hale:

telling you- And there were some things that were happening- Yeah… that I thought my iron was low, which it was. I had babies. My vitamin D was off. Like, I just kept, like- Yeah … you just go, go, go. You finish the room. You do what you have to do.

Dr. Piya Gandhi:

How did that translate into your personal life?

Dr. Kalli Hale:

Well, so I was home when I saw this message. And my husband, we've been, we're, been together since high school. And he's just- Yeah … my hero. He's my secret weapon behind the scenes. And I just said,"I cannot do this anymore." And I just, like, dropped my phone. He handled it. He grabbed it, and he messaged, and he was like, "This, you know, this is the, um…" I don't even know how… He, he, basically, this isn't Callie. Yeah. You're not talking to Callie. Yeah. You're not, any of this can… And it was, like, really an on event. I never read the message. But it just affected- It, yes… me that way. Yes. Because I was already- It let it infiltrate… yeah. So the personal one was that he… We talk about it a little bit on our podcast, what it was like. I have one episode that was completely on burnout before I was writing the book. And he talks about what it was like to live with me- Mm … during that period of time. Because- That's an interesting perspective … I was extremely distracted- Mm… and I was very hard to be around. And everything was a big deal. And we, at the height of burnout, you'll do what they call catastrophizing. Everything's a catastrophe. Yes. Like, your assistant forgets one thing, and it is the-

Dr. Piya Gandhi:

The end. Yeah.

Dr. Kalli Hale:

Yes. And it's not. Yes. You've lost your filter because you only have so much you can hold in your cup, like- Yes at a given time. So that was, you know, the personal journey of that was rough. Um, but the thing that happened at the office that I knew I, I had hit my breaking point. I had, something had to change. It was a… I walked in on a Thursday. It was actually a day that my husband was working with me,'cause he used to do a couple days a week- Okay And I have two associates and him and me, all four of us in this doctor's office. Yeah. And I walk in, I set my bag down, I log in to Open Dent, and my schedule was so horrific that the only way I can explain it is it was abusive.

Dr. Piya Gandhi:

Mm.

Dr. Kalli Hale:

There was no lunch without asking me. I had probably 45 patients booked

between 9:

00 and 2:00, and it was just, I can't be… And then hygiene.

Dr. Piya Gandhi:

Yeah. Like, we started color-coding. If the patient had to see Callie, it was purple. So it's like, it was like legitimately nobody had taken the

Dr. Kalli Hale:

time. And I have a huge treatment coordinating staff. Like, I get it. Everybody's trying to appease everybody. But I walked out the back door.

Dr. Piya Gandhi:

Wow.

Dr. Kalli Hale:

And so Kyle, I didn't even say a word, 'cause I had a panic attack. I mean, I was literally like- Yeah … I'm gonna drive away and they can figure this out. Yeah. Because that is not okay. Yeah. And I, I don't look at my schedule the day before anymore. I did as a new dentist. Yeah. Yes. But like, you don't need, I don't need to carry it in tomorrow. So I had no idea that was coming. And it just hit me, and I walked out the back door. And I, and I must have taken like s- I didn't even, I didn't even say a word. But Kyle's known me since I was 15. Of

Dr. Piya Gandhi:

course.

Dr. Kalli Hale:

And I say… I must have taken a weird breath or something, and all of a sudden he was outside with me. And he heard you. Exactly. And I was just like- Yeah and he was so mad. He couldn't believe. You know, you walk in and you look at your schedule, you're looking at your column.

Dr. Piya Gandhi:

Yeah.

Dr. Kalli Hale:

Well, I had two. Yeah. And there was like twice as many people- No. Yes … on both that shouldn't have been there. Yes. And so he w- he wasn't necessarily looking at mine. Like, he didn't recognize it and then just fixed it. He's, I just always tell him, "You make my problems go away." Yeah. He just, like, fixed it. He walked up there and he was like, "Uh, half of this needs to go. She's taking lunch." Yeah."Or she's gonna leave." And it was just, like, a big deal. Yes. And I- So those are the two big things

Dr. Piya Gandhi:

And I think to your point, like when you're already up here-

Dr. Kalli Hale:

Yeah

Dr. Piya Gandhi:

just, like, every little thing is now- Becomes a catastrophe… just stacking on top of that.

Dr. Kalli Hale:

Yeah, yeah.

Dr. Piya Gandhi:

Um, I mean, I can totally underst- uh, relate and understand. Mm-hmm. And I also think this is more common with women because- Yeah… we do, we want to take on and help, and- Yeah … you know, especially if you've been through any of this airway journey on your own, you know how much impact you can have. Right. Um, and will do it at the sacrifice of ourselves- 100%… for others.

Dr. Kalli Hale:

100%.

Dr. Piya Gandhi:

Um, and for me, you know- And anyone that has worked in this airway field, once you start, your business is gonna take off. Yeah Because so many kids need this, so many adults need this. Absolutely. And so it becomes hard to draw the line and make a limit.

Dr. Kalli Hale:

Especially when you're the only one that can do it.

Dr. Piya Gandhi:

Yes. W- especially when you're the only one that can do it. Um, and especially even if you train other doctors, they're still looking at you- 100%… constantly. Yes. And for me, it was two years that things just, we were not expecting them to take off.

Dr. Kalli Hale:

Yeah. Right

Dr. Piya Gandhi:

And it was just this, before you knew it-

Dr. Kalli Hale:

Yeah… Dr. Piya Gandhi: happened to me. That's literally the s- the case You

Dr. Piya Gandhi:

know?

Dr. Kalli Hale:

Yeah. Yeah.

Dr. Piya Gandhi:

And really who suffered w- was my, my family.

Dr. Kalli Hale:

Yeah. Same.

Dr. Piya Gandhi:

And me, and my health and- Yeah… you know, just the other day my daughter was saying, "Oh yeah, Mom, I used to remember when you were away almost every weekend lecturing."

Dr. Kalli Hale:

Aw.

Dr. Piya Gandhi:

And you know, from a professional standpoint, I was getting so much praise and accolades for teaching, and it was great.

Dr. Kalli Hale:

Yeah.

Dr. Piya Gandhi:

But it was also at a- S- it can be very lonely… Dr. Kalli Hale: Yeah. At, exactly.

Dr. Kalli Hale:

Yeah.

Dr. Piya Gandhi:

Um, so I don't wanna discourage other women, um- Certainly not … going into this field- Yeah… or any dentist. It takes work and especially initially when you're educating yourself- Right … when you're building your systems. But I think the thing that I lacked that would've really helped is a vision of what I wanted it to look like exactly.

Dr. Kalli Hale:

Absolutely. A roadmap for yourself.

Dr. Piya Gandhi:

Yes, because I just kind of went along with it and it- Same and it became a beast in itself-

Dr. Kalli Hale:

And you say yes,

Dr. Piya Gandhi:

and you say yes, and you say yes… which is not a totally bad thing.

Dr. Kalli Hale:

Right.

Dr. Piya Gandhi:

But I had to look back and then pare it down. Yes. Whereas if I had a vision of, "This is what I want it to look like, and I'm gonna build towards that-" Mm-hmm … I think it would've been a lot easier to, to kinda make those boundaries.

Dr. Kalli Hale:

Yeah.

Dr. Piya Gandhi:

And, you know-

Dr. Kalli Hale:

Or even understanding how to make the boundaries.

Dr. Piya Gandhi:

Yes.

Dr. Kalli Hale:

Yeah.

Dr. Piya Gandhi:

Yes.

Dr. Kalli Hale:

So I mean, I c- I could not agree with you more. I had nothing. I had no mental support for what this kind of success was gonna look like for me. Yeah. And yeah, on the outside in, people are always gonna say like,"Oh my gosh, well lucky you," and all this stuff. Yes. What

Dr. Piya Gandhi:

a problem to have.

Dr. Kalli Hale:

Well, I worked my butt off to do it- Yeah … as did you.

Dr. Piya Gandhi:

Yes. Yes.

Dr. Kalli Hale:

But you get to a point where that hotel room is a freaking lonely place to be- Yeah … when your family's at home. Yeah. It was the same for me. Yes. I was doing it every, I was doing it every single month, sometimes more than once. Not every weekend, that's a ton. I can't even imagine. And my mom finally told me, "Honey, you gotta start saying no."

Dr. Piya Gandhi:

Yeah. And

Dr. Kalli Hale:

it was like the money wasn't even worth it at that point.

Dr. Piya Gandhi:

Yeah. Yeah. And

Dr. Kalli Hale:

that's what people don't understand. Yes. Like, it just… And I remember thinking like,"Oh, what a high." You get off stage, all these people are so thankful'cause they've just never heard this stuff before. Yes. And now they see it, they can go help, and our impact is huge because of all the people downline that are gonna be helped- Right … and all of that from it. And then you're, you know, the high comes down, and you're on a

flight at 11:

00 at night trying to come home. And you're exhausted. You're just so tired. Yes. Yeah.

Dr. Piya Gandhi:

And so you, um, have written a book.

Dr. Kalli Hale:

Yes.

Dr. Piya Gandhi:

Yeah. And, um- You talk about a lot of this. Yeah. So tell me about your book. Who's the intended audience? Yes. Yeah,

Dr. Kalli Hale:

so

Dr. Piya Gandhi:

When it's coming out. Piya's big breathing project- Like,

Dr. Kalli Hale:

we just wanna hear… first to hear. Yes. Yes. We're so excited. It is The Dental Burnout Solution.

Dr. Piya Gandhi:

Okay.

Dr. Kalli Hale:

And part of my success in getting over the burnout was I read a book by Dr. Sharon Grossman, and this is a really fun story, but I was just… I mean, as you guys know already, I was at a peak, and I just started googling burnout books. I didn't even know what burnout was. I was just like, I- my dad said, "You're burnt out." And I was like,"Okay, well, I need to Google that." I don't know what that is. And I just stumble upon this book on Amazon, total God thing, and I was reading the reviews, and I was like, man, she has helped, like, Fortune 500 CEOs, like, pilots, like, all these people, and she just has this great, like, framework. And I can just, I can follow the rules. Yes. Like give, give me the rules. Give me the facts. Give me the steps- … and I'm gonna do it. It took me about a year to read,'cause it was a project book. Mm. And one of the first things Kyle and my dad sat down, and they were like,"We're gonna lose Callie as a practitioner if we do not help her fix this." And I took one day off. I was Monday through Thursday full-time, and I took Tuesdays. Tuesdays was my day. Okay. The nanny still came. The kids were still distracted. That's so

Dr. Piya Gandhi:

important.

Dr. Kalli Hale:

Yes. Like, it really was- It's really

Dr. Piya Gandhi:

your day… Dr. Kalli Hale: Yes.

Dr. Kalli Hale:

And I would read this book in the mornings with my coffee, and it was like, it was like every page was- Yeah applicable to me.

Dr. Piya Gandhi:

Yeah.

Dr. Kalli Hale:

It changed my life. And I randomly got an email from her. I'm on her Listserv. And I just decided I was gonna send her an email and just tell her, like, how much the book changed my life. And I- Love that… and I, I literally made it one sentence, okay? Like, I was busy, okay? Mm-hmm. I go, "Dr. Grossman, I just wanna let you know your book changed my life. I hope I get to tell you the story one day." And I just ended it there. Kid you not, she emails me back- Whoa … at the end of the day and she goes,"I'm sorry, what?" Like, "Can we talk?" Like That's so cool. Long story short, we wrote the book together. So we're writing one- Wow specific for dentists. I love that. And it's called The Dental Burnout Solution. Should be out end of summer, early fall.

Dr. Piya Gandhi:

Cool.

Dr. Kalli Hale:

And it's very applicable to what we're dealing with. Not that her other book wasn't, 'cause it absolutely is, but specifically what we deal with- In the dental field … as women business owners. Yeah. Yeah.

Dr. Piya Gandhi:

Wow.

Dr. Kalli Hale:

I love that. And, and hopefully it'll just save somebody-

Dr. Piya Gandhi:

Yeah… Dr. Kalli Hale: the ledge. How was that experience writing a book?

Dr. Kalli Hale:

like wild. I mean, I'm so particular about what every single paragraph says. I think even Dr. Gross was like,"It's good," like, "We're, we're gonna be done," you know? But it was great. We, we spent hours, like, ideating, recording a, basically like a podcast together about what our topics wanted to be so that we could go through that, put it in chapter by chapter, and come up with solutions, um, for doctors, and really around mindset. How's that? Once I was able to change my mindset, everything that w- I was catastrophizing about got better. Yeah. And you do. You level up. Yes. You figure out how to manage these things with multiple arms and all of this, but you put, in boundaries in place. I cut more clinical days. Okay. I'm gonna ask you- Like, my, my journey is just very different… Dr. Piya Gandhi: of the tools that you had to put in place or practices that you had to put in place to get to a healthier balance- Yeah

Dr. Piya Gandhi:

boundary?

Dr. Kalli Hale:

Well, she teaches some good mi- like at the very beginning, basic part, she, she taught against catastrophizing scenarios. So the first was recognizing your thoughts. Mm-hmm. I work on this with my d- with my associates all the time. I'm like, "You need to check the thought. Is it true? Is it false? Are you making up something in your head?" Yeah."You think that patient doesn't like you. You think that doctor doesn't like you." Do

Dr. Piya Gandhi:

you, um-

Dr. Kalli Hale:

Or do you have facts about that?

Dr. Piya Gandhi:

Do you, are you familiar with Br- Brene Brown?

Dr. Kalli Hale:

Yes.

Dr. Piya Gandhi:

She always says this line, which I love, it's, um, "What is the story you're telling yourself?"

Dr. Kalli Hale:

Yes." Dr. Piya Gandhi: story?" Yes. Yes. I, I mean, yes to the 10th degree.

Dr. Piya Gandhi:

Yes.

Dr. Kalli Hale:

It's so important. I have this, I have my original notebook from when I read her book, 'cause I was just, I would just copy down so much stuff. And one of the things that I highlighted and I've used forever is the idea that your fa- your thoughts could be false-

Dr. Piya Gandhi:

Mm-hmm… Dr. Kalli Hale: Because you, you talk to yourself more than you talk to anybody else. And what story are you feeding yourself- Yes … just like she said. Yes. So she, that part was really amazing to me. She was like,"Don't let something bad happen, that happened to you last longer than it took to occur." Hmm.

Dr. Kalli Hale:

So if a patient got upset at you for five minutes-

Dr. Piya Gandhi:

It's over… Dr. Kalli Hale: Like- Love that move on with your day. Like, you have so many other people you've helped. Yes.

Dr. Kalli Hale:

Like, so little stuff that I could take op to op, because I was just being in between them, I'm sure- Uh-huh … the same way, and it's just like, it's just a lot. And, uh, then I decided that I wanted to curate a schedule around my life- Mm-hmm not the other way around.

Dr. Piya Gandhi:

Mm-hmm.

Dr. Kalli Hale:

What did I want my… I, we had a wonderful nanny. She still works for us now in the businesses and our marketing and stuff. But for the first, like, 10 years that I, my kids were growing up, I had somebody taking care of them, and I was working, and I was busting my butt. And when that was gonna go away,'cause they were getting in school and I wanted to do it myself, I was like, "What, what does, what does my day look like now?" Yeah."How do I, what do I want my workday to look like?" And I tell docs, "You have one life. You don't wanna be strapped to your practice. Hire somebody."

Dr. Piya Gandhi:

Yes.

Dr. Kalli Hale:

You wanna work one or two days a week? Great. Do it. Yes. Like, what's stopping you?'Cause I think we get out of school and we just think like- Yes … "We just have to die here."

Dr. Piya Gandhi:

Yes. Like when you do. You know, I think it's, a lot of this is just decision-making when c- Out of like when people make decisions out of fear- Oh … or- 100%… that then your life starts, you know- Dictating. Mm-hmm… dictating. Like life is dictating you, not the other way around. Absolutely. Um, but I- I think a lot of the type A dental medical professionals- Yeah um, A, we're just gotta get it perfect.

Dr. Kalli Hale:

Yeah.

Dr. Piya Gandhi:

No one can-

Dr. Kalli Hale:

Impossible… Dr. Piya Gandhi: as good as I can. Oh, yes.

Dr. Piya Gandhi:

You gotta let go of that. We talk about that

Dr. Kalli Hale:

in

Dr. Piya Gandhi:

the book too. You gotta let go of that.

Dr. Kalli Hale:

Yeah.

Dr. Piya Gandhi:

And I think, like, for me, that's what I had to prioritize. Me too. What are things that I absolutely have to do?

Dr. Kalli Hale:

Right.

Dr. Piya Gandhi:

And what are things that other people can do-

Dr. Kalli Hale:

Yes… Dr. Piya Gandhi: good enough? Right.

Dr. Piya Gandhi:

You know?

Dr. Kalli Hale:

Absolutely.

Dr. Piya Gandhi:

Because you can't be in 2 million places at

Dr. Kalli Hale:

once. You cannot scale, you cannot have the freedom-

Dr. Piya Gandhi:

Yes… Dr. Kalli Hale: if you don't do that. And you can't do them well-

Dr. Kalli Hale:

You cannot … all

Dr. Piya Gandhi:

by yourself.

Dr. Kalli Hale:

You cannot. Yeah. No. And you might think you're the only one that can do it right, but that's not true. Yes. And one of the hardest things, I think, for doctors when they're training their teams and stuff is, like, you gotta let them fail.

Dr. Piya Gandhi:

Mm.

Dr. Kalli Hale:

You want your assistant to write up a protocol on a laser procedure, you need to let her write it up, and then you're not editing it, she's editing it.

Dr. Piya Gandhi:

Yes.

Dr. Kalli Hale:

Like, you have to let- you have to empower your team to do some of this stuff for you because if it's all you, you're there till 11:00 at night, you're gonna die. Yes. It's not sustainable.

Dr. Piya Gandhi:

Yes.

Dr. Kalli Hale:

And you will not be happy. Totally agree. So curate the life that you wanna live. And that's why when people tell you and me all the time, like,"I don't know how you do all you do," it's 'cause it's not all me.

Dr. Piya Gandhi:

Yes.

Dr. Kalli Hale:

Like, literally at the- It takes a team … at the root of it, like, it's a- Yes… huge team that we have to make it all happen, and there's a lot riding on it, of course, always, but-

Dr. Piya Gandhi:

Yes … I have to schedule what I want And even in personal home life.

Dr. Kalli Hale:

Same.

Dr. Piya Gandhi:

You know? You gotta outsource what you can outsource.

Dr. Kalli Hale:

Yes.

Dr. Piya Gandhi:

And-

Dr. Kalli Hale:

Yeah… Dr. Piya Gandhi: cook dinner. Yes.

Dr. Piya Gandhi:

Oh my gosh. I don't- 100%. Like, the groceries are at the door, like-

Dr. Kalli Hale:

Yeah … all- I have cleaning people come twice a week. Yes, the same.

Dr. Piya Gandhi:

Instacart. But, but I wanna drop my kids to school. Me too. And I, so-

Dr. Kalli Hale:

Yeah… Dr. Piya Gandhi: you know, we don't do it all. Yep.

Dr. Piya Gandhi:

We're one human.

Dr. Kalli Hale:

Yes.

Dr. Piya Gandhi:

But we figure out how to recruit people that can support us.

Dr. Kalli Hale:

Right, right.

Dr. Piya Gandhi:

And to your point of giving your team autonomy and things to do, you're also giving them an opportunity to put their stamp on the work that we're doing.

Dr. Kalli Hale:

Yes.

Dr. Piya Gandhi:

Because I know I cannot do my work without my team- Right. Same … in the office.

Dr. Kalli Hale:

Same.

Dr. Piya Gandhi:

I would not be able to-

Dr. Kalli Hale:

Yes… Dr. Piya Gandhi: these patients. Right.

Dr. Piya Gandhi:

Um, and I think giving them ownership of that also gives them drive and fulfillment, and-

Dr. Kalli Hale:

It helps

Dr. Piya Gandhi:

them level up… I mean, they have, they have dedicated their professional lives to- Yes … our vision- Absolutely… and our mission.

Dr. Kalli Hale:

Absolutely.

Dr. Piya Gandhi:

You know? And- It's a

Dr. Kalli Hale:

big deal… Dr. Piya Gandhi: such a, a great thing, a piece for them to have also. It is, and I think it's an important part of even training your assistants.

Dr. Piya Gandhi:

Mm-hmm.

Dr. Kalli Hale:

Like, you have to, you have to empower them, you need to educate them, you need to be there for them. You don't need to be their best friend. That's a- Yeah … that's a hard lesson learned too.

Dr. Piya Gandhi:

Yes. Yes.

Dr. Kalli Hale:

But you have to let them, you have to let them grow in that role and for them to respect you because you're treating them well, but that they know that you want them to succeed.

Dr. Piya Gandhi:

Yes.

Dr. Kalli Hale:

And as we've have s- all these practices and the lead docs, I'm like, "Are you sitting with your assistant? Are you sitting with your treatment coordinator?" They are your team. Mm-hmm. I know this is my office, but this is your office. Like, this is your team. Well,

Dr. Piya Gandhi:

and that's one thing is I- I have had one associate that would always say, "Well, I'm not the owner."

Dr. Kalli Hale:

Oh,

Dr. Piya Gandhi:

right."And I'm not the, Dr. Gandhi's the owner." And I said, "When you are here, you are the owner."

Dr. Kalli Hale:

Absolutely.

Dr. Piya Gandhi:

This is your practice. Yes. My practices are small, so we don't work side by side.

Dr. Kalli Hale:

Okay.

Dr. Piya Gandhi:

And I'm like,"Literally, you are the- Yes … you are the leader here."

Dr. Kalli Hale:

You're my heartbeat here. Yes. Like, you gotta make it happen.

Dr. Piya Gandhi:

And you, I want you to treat this- Yeah … like this is your office.

Dr. Kalli Hale:

Absolutely.

Dr. Piya Gandhi:

Not, "Oh, I don't, I, I don't own this, so I can't make this decision." No, you make this decision.

Dr. Kalli Hale:

Yeah.

Dr. Piya Gandhi:

You know? Absolutely. You are dedicating your professional practice- Right … to this.

Dr. Kalli Hale:

Mm-hmm.

Dr. Piya Gandhi:

So it's a mindset. It

Dr. Kalli Hale:

is.

Dr. Piya Gandhi:

It's definitely a mindset.

Dr. Kalli Hale:

It's 90% of it, and we're not, we're not taught any of that getting out of school. And then you own your own business, and you need to figure out how to run a business. We're not, we're not given those tools.

Dr. Piya Gandhi:

Yes.

Dr. Kalli Hale:

And so it's, it's, that's why I think being a mentor is so important. Like, teaching like we are and being there for each other, all of us working together. Mm-hmm. Like, "Hey, what do you use for this?" and, "I need help with this." Like-

Dr. Piya Gandhi:

Yes… ' Dr. Kalli Hale: extremely lonely otherwise, and it's always like- And especially- a turf war and this,

Dr. Kalli Hale:

and it's like, no… Dr. Piya Gandhi: airway field. Yeah. I didn't realize how small it was until I was so in it.

Dr. Piya Gandhi:

You know, I trained, um, I trained a, a colleague in San Antonio, and she messaged me maybe a month ago. Aw. It was in March, actually. And she's pediatric dentist, and she said, um, "Do you ever feel lonely being in this field?" Aw. And I said,"Girl, I know exactly what you're talking about." Yeah. Because I- The Houston pediatric dental market is pretty cutthroat to begin with.

Dr. Kalli Hale:

Yeah.

Dr. Piya Gandhi:

Oh, okay. And then when you try to do something different-

Dr. Kalli Hale:

Yeah… Dr. Piya Gandhi: I opened my practice in 2017- Okay… Dr. Piya Gandhi: all the tongue tie stuff, and- Yeah

Dr. Piya Gandhi:

got a lot of shade for it.

Dr. Kalli Hale:

Oh, I bet you were.

Dr. Piya Gandhi:

Um-

Dr. Kalli Hale:

I mean, that, that was the blue ocean time-

Dr. Piya Gandhi:

Yes, got a lot of shade for it… Dr. Kalli Hale: Um, I had an attending during residency tell me, "Well, I'm not teaching you anything anymore because you're opening a practice right next to mine." Yes.

Dr. Kalli Hale:

You're kidding.

Dr. Piya Gandhi:

And so-

Dr. Kalli Hale:

Oh, and, and you're paying for this residency

Dr. Piya Gandhi:

And so- Oh, my gosh you know what I told her is, and with this is what I, this is what I still teach even though we're so much farther than we were. Yes. The last 10

Dr. Kalli Hale:

years have

Dr. Piya Gandhi:

been incredible. There's so much more collaboration- Yes… and understanding. But I tell doctors, like,"You cannot do this work or any work that's a little ahead of the curve-" Yeah um, unless you really believe in it."

Dr. Kalli Hale:

100%.

Dr. Piya Gandhi:

Because you are gonna be challenged- Yeah … over and over, and you're gonna have to come back to you-

Dr. Kalli Hale:

Yeah… Dr. Piya Gandhi: Mm-hmm… Dr. Piya Gandhi: that make you whole- Yes… Dr. Piya Gandhi: yourself. Right. And you don't even have to defend yourself. You just have to know that you're doing the right thing. In your core, you gotta believe you're doing

Dr. Piya Gandhi:

the right thing. Because you are gonna have more people questioning you- Yeah … than ever before.

Dr. Kalli Hale:

Mm-hmm.

Dr. Piya Gandhi:

And if there is any doubt in your mind that you don't think you're doing the right thing for your patient, you are not gonna survive in this field.

Dr. Kalli Hale:

100%.

Dr. Piya Gandhi:

You know?

Dr. Kalli Hale:

Yeah.

Dr. Piya Gandhi:

And so part of my, like, growing and getting out of the burnout was really looking at things that make me whole.

Dr. Kalli Hale:

Yeah. Surrounding yourself.

Dr. Piya Gandhi:

Surrounding myself by people that make me whole- Yes.

Dr. Kalli Hale:

That support

Dr. Piya Gandhi:

you … that support.

Dr. Kalli Hale:

Yeah.

Dr. Piya Gandhi:

Cutting out anyone that was toxic at all.

Dr. Kalli Hale:

Absolutely.

Dr. Piya Gandhi:

And then filling out the, the figuring out the things that fill my cup that just require me.

Dr. Kalli Hale:

Yeah.

Dr. Piya Gandhi:

Not dependent on anyone else. Right. For me, I have a very, like, I'm not a religious person, but I have a spiritual practice. Yeah. I've, I've been a yogi my whole life. Oh. Um, and you know, I have a daily, like, meditation book.

Dr. Kalli Hale:

Yes. Yeah.

Dr. Piya Gandhi:

Those are the things. And you know, honestly, the life has gotten simpler- Yeah and smaller. And-

Dr. Kalli Hale:

Even though we're still so busy. Yes. And we also, it's so true.

Dr. Piya Gandhi:

But then I go home, and I feel complete.

Dr. Kalli Hale:

Yeah.

Dr. Piya Gandhi:

And I feel- Beautiful … I also feel like work is manageable.

Dr. Kalli Hale:

Yeah.

Dr. Piya Gandhi:

And I'm spending the time with, with the patients. Right. Because in this field, and really it should be in any healthcare field, but especially in the airway field, you're gonna encounter families that- They're in a dire state.

Dr. Kalli Hale:

Absolutely.

Dr. Piya Gandhi:

And they have been- They are so

Dr. Kalli Hale:

desperate

Dr. Piya Gandhi:

for help … they have been bounced around.

Dr. Kalli Hale:

Yes.

Dr. Piya Gandhi:

Yes And so you're not only their clinician, but you are their therapist. Therapist. You're their Their therapist. You gotta listen to their stories.

Dr. Kalli Hale:

Right.

Dr. Piya Gandhi:

And then you also have to learn how to create a boundary-

Dr. Kalli Hale:

Absolutely

Dr. Piya Gandhi:

so that you don't become their therapist.

Dr. Kalli Hale:

100%. 100%.

Dr. Piya Gandhi:

So it's a really tricky field. Yeah. And I feel like women excel in it- Yeah … because we are- Empathic… innately empathetic beings. Yes. For

Dr. Kalli Hale:

sure. For sure.

Dr. Piya Gandhi:

Um, and we, we feel, especially if you're a mother, you f- you feel for these families, and I went through it with my own daughters.

Dr. Kalli Hale:

Right.

Dr. Piya Gandhi:

Um, and that's when it gets tricky to also be able to take a step back and say, "Yes, I can help you."

Dr. Kalli Hale:

Yes.

Dr. Piya Gandhi:

But, A, I'm not a magician. Right. This is not magic.

Dr. Kalli Hale:

Right.

Dr. Piya Gandhi:

I'm not gonna put one appliance in you and- Absolutely… things are magically gonna change.

Dr. Kalli Hale:

Right. It's not

Dr. Piya Gandhi:

a tooth. It's gonna take overnight. Yep. It's gonna take effort on your part. Yeah. It's gonna take changing lifestyle.

Dr. Kalli Hale:

Yeah.

Dr. Piya Gandhi:

Um- Oh my

Dr. Kalli Hale:

gosh, diet and nutrition. Oh

Dr. Piya Gandhi:

All of it. This is all root cause work.

Dr. Kalli Hale:

Yeah. Mm-hmm.

Dr. Piya Gandhi:

Um, and that I think is also a practice that we don't learn in school.

Dr. Kalli Hale:

No.

Dr. Piya Gandhi:

And when we're young. It's so true. Yeah. That when we talk about mentoring and coaching, um, really elevating these doctors to have these types of conversations-

Dr. Kalli Hale:

Yeah

Dr. Piya Gandhi:

is really s- one of the biggest keys.

Dr. Kalli Hale:

It is.

Dr. Piya Gandhi:

You know, 'cause you'll start to see the anatomy patterns and the-

Dr. Kalli Hale:

Mm-hmm… Dr. Piya Gandhi: start to see that, but it's really about looking at all the other stuff that's going on- Yeah … and knowing who to collaborate with. Absolutely. I mean, I think so much of what you were doing early on there with the knives in your back and all the things, I can completely relate to in, just in League City alone. You know? Yeah. It's like none of the, none of the people that traditionally move teeth were very happy with-

Dr. Piya Gandhi:

Yeah… Dr. Kalli Hale: were doing. And I knew at the heart of it the success that we were having, the results were right in front of us with these patients, so I'm like, "I'm never gonna stop offering this. I would never stop doing it. Show me somebody that we have harmed, and then we will stop doing it," right? Yes. Yes. And, and but just having that confidence does not come naturally to most dentists I would say. I would say most, not all, but like most. And you do care about what other people think. Of course. I, I care very much less now. Yes. But like it's a boundary, you know? Yes. You get to choose who hurts you. Yes. You get to choose who's in your life that can tell you something that you're gonna take into your soul- Yes… Dr. Kalli Hale: not, you know? But that takes a little growing up and also having the confidence that I think is very much lacking when they're new at it. Yes.

Dr. Kalli Hale:

Because you're like, "I wanna go tell this other specialist that I'm doing this or whatever. I wanna talk about it." It's like I usually tell them,"Finish a couple of cases." Mm-hmm. Just do your thing. Let a year and a half go by.

Dr. Piya Gandhi:

Yeah.

Dr. Kalli Hale:

Get some stuff under your belt. You're gonna have so much more, yes-

Dr. Piya Gandhi:

Yes

Dr. Kalli Hale:

that you can share so that you're not hit with a question that you can't answer yet-

Dr. Piya Gandhi:

Yes… Dr. Kalli Hale: So yeah. Yeah. It's a, it's an important piece of it. And at the end of the day, the kids suffer when they aren't offered this treatment. Yes.

Dr. Kalli Hale:

And that's why I can't look at the kid- Not even just the

Dr. Piya Gandhi:

kid. The whole family… Dr. Kalli Hale: Okay, for sure. The whole family.

Dr. Kalli Hale:

For sure.

Dr. Piya Gandhi:

So, Closing, I would love to hear- I mean, we could talk for hours. I know. But, um, I would love to hear if you could give a practitioner who's looking to get into this, like, one piece of advice. Where do I start? What do I do? And then a parent, you know, a piece of advice from, like, a parenting aspect-

Dr. Kalli Hale:

Yeah

Dr. Piya Gandhi:

um, who think, who- who is seeing their, some of these signs in their kids.

Dr. Kalli Hale:

Yeah.

Dr. Piya Gandhi:

You know, what do they do?

Dr. Kalli Hale:

Um, I'll start with the parents. I would say good for you for recognizing it, and knock down as many doors as you need to to get the help.

Dr. Piya Gandhi:

Mm.

Dr. Kalli Hale:

Don't take no for an answer. Get five different opinions if you want to. I encourage my patients to get second, third, fourth opinions all the time. I want you to be so confident- Yes … with me or whoever you choose that that happens. And just keep pushing. Don't accept no right out the gate that your kid, you know, shouldn't have expanders or whatever. Um, for the doctors, just know that what we're doing is safe, effective, and life-changing. Know that it's possible, period. Because I think the first thing that you have to undo in your mind is thinking that what we're doing with expanders is not possible.

Dr. Piya Gandhi:

Mm-hmm.

Dr. Kalli Hale:

And that's not true. Mm-hmm. So just know it's not true, or I wouldn't have offices in multiple cities about it- Yeah… and you wouldn't still be doing it. If what we did wasn't effective, we wouldn't do it. Then start asking around. Go to meetings.

Dr. Piya Gandhi:

Mm-hmm.

Dr. Kalli Hale:

Find somebody to educate you. There are courses all over that you… DM Piya, DM me, we will tell you. Yes. And find your tribe-

Dr. Piya Gandhi:

Yes… Dr. Kalli Hale: have to be lonely. Yeah. And I would say just be curious.

Dr. Kalli Hale:

Yes. Let's challenge

Dr. Piya Gandhi:

the narrative. Yes. Keep being curious. Yes. I'm still … We are all forever learning.

Dr. Kalli Hale:

Oh, my gosh. Absolutely.

Dr. Piya Gandhi:

And then one more time, the name of your book.

Dr. Kalli Hale:

It's gonna be The Dental Burnout Solution.

Dr. Piya Gandhi:

Okay. Awesome. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Thank you so much-

Dr. Kalli Hale:

Thank you for

Dr. Piya Gandhi:

having me … for being here This was so fun. This was awesome. Um, and I just love that, you know, we can collaborate and connect- Same,

Dr. Kalli Hale:

girl… Dr. Piya Gandhi: know, tips. Because it can get lonely. Yeah.

Dr. Piya Gandhi:

But, you know, when you find your people, it's so rewarding. Oh, my gosh. It's the best. So thank you

Dr. Kalli Hale:

so much. Yeah. You're welcome. Thank you for having me.

Dr. Piya Gandhi:

Yeah.

Dr. Kalli Hale:

Yeah. Thank you for watching!

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Dr. Piya Gandhi, DDS

Host
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Dr. Kalli Hale

Guest